quote:

---

Main Entry: 1am·bi·tion
Pronunciation: am-'bi-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin ambition-, ambitio, literally, act of soliciting for votes, from ambire
Date: 14th century
1 a : an ardent desire for rank, fame, or power b : desire to achieve a particular end
2 : the object of ambition
3 : a desire for activity or exertion <felt sick and had no ambition>

- am·bi·tion·less /-l&s/ adjective
synonyms AMBITION, ASPIRATION, PRETENSION mean strong desire for advancement. AMBITION applies to the desire for personal advancement or preferment and may suggest equally a praiseworthy or an inordinate desire <driven by ambition>.

ASPIRATION implies a striving after something higher than oneself and usually implies that the striver is thereby ennobled <an aspiration to become president someday>.

---

So what, precisely is WRONG with Dylan being a man of ambition? Which imho is what he's been from the moment he found out about the Fall???????

Lil

The thing I think not to get confused is this:

Dylan has the ambition to restore the Commonwealth, but does NOT aspire to be its leader.

--------------------
Full ROMan Monk
Shut up and remember how much you love me! - [Rommie in ATH]

quote:

---

So what, precisely is WRONG with Dylan being a man of ambition? Which imho is what he's been from the moment he found out about the Fall???????

---

As they say in the UK House of Commons, I refer my right honorable friend to the answer I gave previously (in another thread).

YAWN.

That's it -- I'm packing it in.

Lil, go to bed.

[This message has been edited by MikeJoe (edited August 23, 2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dylanite:
From Webster's online:

So what, precisely is WRONG with Dylan being a man of ambition? Which imho is what he's been from the moment he found out about the Fall???????

Lil

---

hmmm, so then is what you are asking is shouldn't Dylan be aspiring to be high power in the Commonwealth, as in right under the Triumvir or whatever?

Or could ambition be--simply trying to aid the growth of the Commonwealth? Is that such a bad thing?

Or am I still NOT understanding you?

-Susie

To have a goal - that's good thing I suppose, ambitions for own life I would consider good. But ambitions to have power over others, ambitions to make others be what one thinks is better - no. Sure it not so black-and-white and sparatable, but by large, by what desire is feeding the ambitions.

Ambitions to have something without clear understanding what it really is, one wants, why one wants it - I don't think that is good (and thanks to Sorbo's poor acting, this is what Dylan has been - the guy on screen has never had the vaguest idea why or what he does, just does).

Ambitions to have something what includes other people - no I don't think this is bad, but I think bad is if the goal is to change others lives. It sounds nice and tempting - making others to live better - but beneath - who is one to decide what's better to other? What superior creature is one to expect that what seems/is better to one should be that to other? Being attentive - that is good, but changing other to be something one thinks is better - that's considering the other inferior. It's fine for adult to decide what's better to infant, but ambition to decide what's better to others, is always considering others infants.

Lea.


--------------------
[url=http://www.zone.ee/KHC/Tyr]http://www.zone.ee/KHC/Tyr[/url]
[url=http://www.hot.ee/andromeda2]http://www.hot.ee/andromeda2[/url]
[url=http://www.hot.ee/andromeda2]http://www.hot.ee/andromeda2[/url]
[Tyr] You shouldn't trust any Nietzschean ... ACCEPT me! [/Tyr]
Battle not with monsters lest you become one. - Friedrich Nietzsche

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lea_KHCMB:
Ambitions to force own will to others?

To have a goal - that's good thing I suppose, ambitions for own life I would consider good. But ambitions to have power over others, ambitions to make others be what one thinks is better - no. Sure it not so black-and-white and sparatable, but by large, by what desire is feeding the ambitions.

Ambitions to have something what includes other people - no I don't think this is bad, but I think bad is if the goal is to change others lives. It sounds nice and tempting - making others to live better - but beneath - who is one to [b]decide what's better to other? What superior creature is one to expect that what seems/is better to one should be that to other? Being attentive - that is good, but changing other to be something one thinks is better - that's considering the other inferior. It's fine for adult to decide what's better to infant, but ambition to decide what's better to others, is always considering others infants.

Lea.
[/B]

---

Forgive me Lea, but that sounds suspiciously like a good description of Nietzscheans and particularly Tyr. <g>

-Susie

I think it would be better to forget the word and re-evaluate Dylan without using it, because the word is throwing you off.

I just rented Black Hawk Down. Before the mission begins, there's a scene with an American soldier explaining why their involvement in Somalia was the right thing to do, for the Somalis' sake. That was ambitious thinking. If they were to successfully pacify Somalia, what would an ambitious soldier like him want to do next? You seem to think that "ambition" dicates a particular choice, which in my example would equate to staying in Somalia to rule is after conquering it, just like Aidid had intended. But wouldn't it be equally ambitious if he'd said the next thing he wanted to do is ship off to another troubled country and bring order to it as well? Wouldn't it also have been ambitious to quit the military service and try to start a business back home in America? Wouldn't it have been ambitious spend his next long leave scaling a mountain, or to try to get into the Guiness Book of World Records for the most machine guns simultaneously balanced on his chin for a minute?

Ambition is about what kind of odds you are motivated to go against and what obstacles you decide to try to overcome. But it lacks direction on its own; ambition can be applied in any direction. Stalin and Ghandi were both ambitious, but not in the same direction.

I am quite ambitious at work, but my abition doesn't include wanted to be promoted to the next level. To do that means leaving the trenches, means a job in the State office, developing policy, meeting with legislators and the like. My ambition is stay where I am but become the absolute best at what I do, stay hands on with the clients, stay hands on with the facilities, but at the same time I aspire to help my district become the best at what we do. To develolp innovative ways to provide services to increase the level of independence in our clients.

So, ambition doesn't have to mean moving up the latter in title. I think Dylan is still very ambitious.

One more thing, Dylan is certainly not done testing his will against this universe. So, he got the first 50 worlds to sign and the new CW has a beginning. He still has not re-shaped the universe to his will. The CW is not where he needs it to be to have what he had before. There are still plenty of forces out there to content with that could easily destroy the new CW Dylan has started. The Dragons, Gen-ites, Enigma, Magog. He is still testing his will against the universe and IMHO will be doing that until this universe is more mirrored to what he lost, which it is not.

What Dylan wants is what he had before the fall. He is not where near having that. All he has is a very small beginning, but he still needs to shape it, while it grows if he wants it to take the form he has in mind. (example: pottery, he wants to make this ornate vase, he spent the first two years trying to find just the right clay, now he has it. He can now begin. But the vase is no where near completed and during the shaping and making process so many things can go wrong and this vase can take on a whole different look than the one he has in mind. So, his ambition is to work with and on this project until he has what he wants. Hell, during the shaping process he may find the clay he has obtained, isn't enough, or it isn't the quality thought and therefore has to search for more or better in order for this vase to ever take the shape he wants it to have)

Just a thought.

[This message has been edited by Rayhana (edited August 23, 2002).]

There are different kinds of ambition, some healthier than others.

As far as the moral perspective is concerned, I just don't want it to be applied too much in Tyr's case.

So now we can apply this to Dylan. His ambition his to restore peace and order and stuff, yadda yadda yadda. So, morally, this is good. I guess.

I can well imagine that if the new commonwealth organizes games that do not test Dylan fully, he might decide to choose his own contests and not be a bit out of character or a bit less determined to bend the universe to his will for doing so.

Cardie

--------------------
The good ended happily and the bad unhappily. That is what Fiction means.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cardie:
I'm going to muddy the waters and say that Dylan's trying ro shape the universe to his will has nothing to do with ambition.

---

If you ended the post right here, I'd agree with you.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Delvo2:
Ambition is about what kind of odds you are motivated to go against and what obstacles you decide to try to overcome. But it lacks direction on its own; ambition can be applied in any direction. Stalin and Ghandi were both ambitious, but not in the same direction.

---

O.k. I'm thinking of how to say this... how to be totally succinct in expressing how well this answers the question, how excellently phrased... and all I've come up with is

SWO-O-o-o-on.............THUD!!!

(Sorry... )

QT

--------------------
Gene-ites Founder

quote:

---

Originally posted by Delvo2:
I couldn't figure out how you thought that the ambition to restore the Commonwealth equals ambition to at least partially rule it, and that it's inconsistent to want one thing but not the other.

---

I...where did I say that Dylan should want to rule the CW? If someone can point me to this? I don't think that at all.

quote:

---

I think it would be better to forget the word and re-evaluate Dylan without using it, because the word is throwing you off.

---

Actually I think it's throwing *you* off because I am actually perfectly clear on the concept I have in mind. Where I am failing apparently, is properly articulating that concept. I apologize.

quote:

---

I*snippage of good stuff for space sake.

Ambition is about what kind of odds you are motivated to go against and what obstacles you decide to try to overcome. But it lacks direction on its own; ambition can be applied in any direction. Stalin and Ghandi were both ambitious, but not in the same direction.

---

I could not agree with you MORE!!!!! And my fear is the more casual and not DRIVEN Dylan that Kevin seems to want to play will lose PRECISELY the traits you describe above. I don't want that. I don't think it makes for a good lead hero on this show and I can't conceive of Tyr putting up with it.

Maybe I should use the word "intense" or "focused", or "goal oriented", or "driven" or all of the above instead of "ambitious". I don't know because I still feel like I'm not getting my point across (a frustrating kind of feeling I think you'll allow).

Lil

[This message has been edited by Dylanite (edited August 23, 2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dylanite:

I could not agree with you MORE!!!!! And my fear is that Dylan (the more casual and not DRIVEN Dylan that Kevin seems to want to play) will be lost. I don't want that.

Maybe I should use the word "intense" or "focused", or "goal oriented", or "driven" or all of the above instead of "ambitious". I don't know because I still feel like I'm not getting my point across (a frustrating kind of feeling I think you'll allow).

Lil

---

Ahhh Now I understand. I actually thought at the beginning that is what you meant, but then I was confused because it seemed you wanted Dylan to be in some way ruling the Commonwealth.

Yes, Dylan should be a driven by "mission" or "focused" on purpose.

I hope KS doesn't want him to just be playful either. Although I suspect that isn't exactly what he meant. But then most here don't agree with me on that. <g>

-Susie

I'll just add a little twist here: how do you MOTIVATE Dylan to do so, with no CW in sight? A tough one. Some more guilt?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dylanite:
Preface: NOT that I expect a whole lot of sympathy here, but the problem with having started all these discussions is that now I'm having trouble keeping up with them (let laone keeping straight what has ben said in each of them)

---

LOL!!! And, I guess I misunderstood the question as well... but the issue of ambition seems to be slightly off target - (Note: I think this comes from the other thread) - the real question is his sense of mission. I mentioned this in Keith's, and I sympathize, because it is really a hard distinction to make with this character. But what's at stake is Dylan the shape of Dylan's universe! How is he changing it? How much control of the shape does he have?

O.k. maybe that's my issue - I'm still stuck on Tyr being with Dylan.... he said he likes the shape of Dylan's universe - if that's true then he has to have some idea in mind of what that shape is - and if its only running around doing good deeds...all the good I thought IP had done comes undone. We are stuck again with NuTyr...

QT

--------------------
Gene-ites Founder

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel:
Dylan has the ambition to restore the Commonwealth, but does NOT aspire to be its leader.

---

Exactly.

But as to the question of ambition -- I don't think it's wrong morally, until you begin to do immoral acts to achieve it. Does that make sense?

Threads that are golden don't break easily

quote:

---

Originally posted by QueenTiye:


O.k. maybe that's my issue - I'm still stuck on Tyr being with Dylan.... he said he likes the shape of Dylan's universe - if that's true then he has to have some idea in mind of what that shape is - and if its only running around doing good deeds...all the good I thought IP had done comes undone. We are stuck again with NuTyr...

QT

---

You know QT--I think we are in agreement here. And I hope KS's comment of going around doing good is over simplified, (as I have been accused of being thh thh)

I always thought from the beginning that Dylan wanted not only to restore order and justice, but to UNITE all warring factions.
The opening at the beginning of Season 2 stated that Dylan was going to try to reunite the galaxies. That means reuniting the Nietzscheans which is also Tyr's goal. And on that, there would be a MAJOR reason for Tyr to stay.

And it also seemed to me that Dylan agreed with the possibility that if

s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
Tamberlain was indeed the Messiah that would reunite the Nietzscheans, then he needed to be protected as well--although I don't like that storyline--it seems too "easy".

If Dylan's "purpse" now that the fledgling Commonwealth has been created is to go about "doing good"--I don't see any reason for Tyr to stay, nor how that would HELP or AID this new, but fragile order.

It would make more sense for Dylan to go around trying to cement that order. If it means CHANGING agendas or REGULATIONS so other parties will REMAIN in the order, that would make more sense. And would also give Tyr a reason to stay because it would also mean trying to wrangle the Nietzscheans together AND also would mean aiding his son and protecting him.

I dunno--too much not answered. I'm not sure I like the "let's go around and have a fun time helping people." idea either. It would be fine, if along WITH doing good and helping people meant cracking down on abusers, trying to keep the current members focused on the ORDER not on their own personal AGENDA's--TRAINING a military section to PROTECT and DEFEND that order etc and so on yadda yadda--

Just ramblings

-Susie

I'll argue a bit about Tamerlaine... I like the storyline - largely because there is no Tamerlaine storyline - only a Tyr one. Tamerlaine is a baby, and will be no older than 8 by series end (See QT tacking on extra years to the show??? LOL!). He isn't uniting anything... and at his age, the best that he can be used for is a pawn... and I'm also not convinced that every Nietzschean gives a fiddle. Further - I think that Tamerlaine faces the same problems any prophet does - the people can pray for God to send a prophet all day long, but when that prophet comes, what do they do? (Hint: They don't follow along nicely...)

So the Tamerlaine storyline just gives the writers some room to play with Tyr's character, and gives Tyr motivation. But that motivation is VERY directed - it can't be swept under the rug while daddy goes on a boyscout mission with scout leader Dylan...

QT

--------------------
Gene-ites Founder

Dylan is doing his duty to the CW to the best of his ability, he has lost all that was once his pride & joy the wowman he loved with all his heart.

Come on he gave her up a second time for the CW to make it a better place for all. If thats ambition then I hope that if I had to choose between the past that no longer exists or a brand new hopefully better universe that I would have the courage to do the same.

Long Live Dylan Hunt & the CommonWealth.

Lynn

--------------------
Dylanite Keeper of Dylans Caresses
Honory Roman
Goremaster
Long live the commonwealth.
Lynn

I think Dylan is a man who likes to commit and when he does he will do anything and everything to ensure that he lives up to that commitment. He feels he didn't do this with the CW. He failed at that commitment and the fall happened. (actually I'm not really sure if he had released the Nova if that would have stopped the fall or just delayed it a bit).

Anyway, I believe his goal, his focus is to not just restore the CW, but to ensure that it functions the way he thinks it should. All he has done is get 50 worlds to agree to work together. Doesn't mean they will actually do it. Doesn't mean it will be the way Dylan has envisioned it. Doesn't mean the universe is shaped to his will. Just means something has started that could actually shape the universe to Dylan's will.

Until TFU I would have said Dylan had been brainwashed by the CW. He was so dedicated to it and the Vedrans that he gave up his chance to be with Sara, to go back and serve with his people, to help his time recover and rebuild. I looked at his as almost being brainwashed because he wasn't thinking for himself, IMHO, he was thinking the way he was told too, trained too.

But after TFU he began questioning all of this. Perhaps this is where he ideals, his shaping of the universe may have changed and started taking on something else. Some less glorious, then it started out to be.

Dylan blames himself for the fall of the original CW. As some have mentioned, Dylan’s belief that if he had used the nova bomb at Hephaistos the long night would never had happened. I always felt that one of the best scenes that gives insight to Dylan’s motives came in TDTTH.
Dylan to Rev Bem: “I will not make that mistake again.” I believe that still holds true.

The new CW only has 50 members out of an entire universe. It is a chaotic universe that still has slavers, pirates and malcontent groups, the Knights of Genetic Purity for one, with their own agendas. I may be oversimplifying, but Dylan will want to protect this young CW and Tyr, IMO agrees and understands the reasons. A civilized universe is a far better and stronger place for Tyr's son to emerge as a leader than a universe in chaos.
Yia

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rayhana:
I don't think I agree with the indication that Dylan perhaps is a playful man, one who like games, who likes to win the trophy and then move to the next game. To me this doesn't fit in with a man who was willing to commit his life to a single woman. To do so means you are one who enjoys, who wants commitment, obligation, is willing to work hard, etc. A playful man, who loves the game, doesn't usually get into long term personal commitments, afterall they could interfer with the game.

---

I don't agree that being a fierce competitor cancels out commitment. What if you were the greatest quarterback in the US and suddenly professional sports were wiped out. Dylan was a committed quarterback for the HG Argosy special ops Warriors, very committed to his team and loving to play in the Systems Commonwealth League. Then he emerges from a black hole and there's nothing but a little arena football and lots of individual sandlot scraps. Sure he'll dedicate himself to refounding the league, but you can bet he does it because he wants to lead the team back out on the field, not because he wants to be the commissioner.

I know that some sports stars have troubled marriages, and lots of them, but you can be a person who likes to play games for his work and who is still loyal to one woman at home. I would, however, point out that when it was a choice of Sara or the CW, rather than Sara and the CW, he picked the CW. And the idyllic home life he hallucinated in TTWCC was no competition for his fears that he would be forced out of the HG.

Cardie

--------------------
The good ended happily and the bad unhappily. That is what Fiction means.

While I think Dylan loved Sara, I don't think he loved her enough. As long as he never had to make a choice between her and anything or anyone else, life was good. I believe that if he truely loved her with his entire heart and soul, he would have chosen to stay with her, fight the fight from that time, along side his fellow HG and worked to re-build his world and time. His true love is the CW, that is all he will commit to 100%. That is what he will choose over anyone and anything. That was reinforced in The Things We Cannot Change. He wasn't willing to to choose his wife, son, family over his career.

He may love the game, but he seemed to love what the game stood for more, tptb behind the game. (I do like your football analogy, it helped me understand better). Thanks.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rayhana:

This kind of man rarely commits long term t much of anything or anyone, except the game. He likes the chase, the plotting, the planning, the execution. Once the game is won, its time to move on to another. Not so much time to work on the existing game, perfecting it, getting better at it, but moving on to whatever else is out there to play. He just wants to play.

While I think Dylan loved Sara, I don't think he loved her enough. As long as he never had to make a choice between her and anything or anyone else, life was good. I believe that if he truely loved her with his entire heart and soul, he would have chosen to stay with her, fight the fight from that time, along side his fellow HG and worked to re-build his world and time. His true love is the CW, that is all he will commit to 100%. That is what he will choose over anyone and anything. That was reinforced in The Things We Cannot Change. He wasn't willing to to choose his wife, son, family over his career.

He may love the game, but he seemed to love what the game stood for more, tptb behind the game. (I do like your football analogy, it helped me understand better). Thanks.

---

hmmm interesting take. Kinda not very Romantic---

Um, but my perspective is that Dylan DID love Sarah very much, but he did not believe that you could go back to the past, that you have to move forward. I'm not sure I would accept that Dylan can't commit to any relationship--I think with Sarah it was more that you can't go back to the past--you have to move forward. Fate dealt him the hand of being thrown forward mucho time---that unfortunately is the hand he was dealt--

Anyway, that is how I saw it, but you do have an interesting perspective.

-Susie

My feeling is that if you love someone, heart and soul, you would generally choose them if at all possible. While it would not have been appropriate for the show for Dylan to choose Sara, cuz then we have no show, what I'm saying is that Dylan could have made a difference had he stayed with her. He could have worked with the HG and CW folks that were left to fight, to re-build. He would know what the future holds and could use that to his advantage to change the outcome of the future in some, hopefully positive way.

Oh, I believe he loved Sara as much as he could have loved anyone at that time. He just didn't love her enough to make her first, I don't think he ever would. The CW would always be between them, the CW would always take him from her. If the fall hadn't happened, he would have always chosen the CW over Sara. But, I think she knew that and she loved him enough for both of them.

I would call the CW the love of Dylan's life, but Sara was the deepest love he could have ever felt for anyone at that time. I understand why he couldn't choose her, no show, but I'm think past that. Forget the show. If you love someone that much, that deeply, and you have a chance to stay with them, and at the same time you can use that chance to make a difference in that time, why wouldn't you? The world he is in now is in chaos, so was the world Sara was in. Both worlds need help to make a difference. Why not choose the one that offers you more of what you want and need. Just my thoughts

Be Seeing You,
David Blackwell

--------------------
enterline2.tripod.com/andromeda
enterline2.tripod.com/enterline