Umm. I saw "Tunnel" and, er . . . it wasn't that bad Drew Purple Pixie edit by MovieImp to add in spoiler space S P O I L E R S P A C E Seriously. My only complaint was that if Trance knew that the mysterious alien attack was going to happen at this conference, then why the frell didn't she say something a few days, weeks, or months earlier? If you were sent back in time to right the wrongs of Sept 11, 2001, are you going to wait until just a few minutes before the planes hit the towers to tell everyone? Of course not. Weakest point in the episode, and something that suggests they're really making up the macro-plot as they go. Otherwise the first words blurted out after she came back in time should have been "Don't form the Commonwealth. If you do, everyone will die." Now that would have left everyone stunned. Otherwise, there isn't much here to go on. Mysterious aliens with mysterious motives . . . and a hope that more is resolved in the Season 3 premiere. (Hey, eT, if Farscape can give us a confusing "Part 1" that doesn't answer all the questions, and that's okay with you, why can't Andromeda do the same? ) (I can't believe I just said that. Must do penance.) Anyway, you know why this one worked? Ensemble. The whole crew working together on the same thing. (No, I don't mean that they all have the same agenda and they all LOVE each other now, I mean it in the same sense as a job environment where you are probably at odds with half the people you work with, but you're still doing the same job.) Dylan's dialogue left a lot to be desired--as it usually does. And when the alien first appeared and dragged the Bad Guy off screaming, Dylan's expression was one of vague disinterest. Hello? Can you muster up a look of horror or the stunning fear of the unknown? Because it looked to me like "Gosh, I'm bored. Is this episode over yet?" Luckily the rest of the cast did their thing with the usual aplomb. Though Harper is really starting (starting? Maybe continuing) to annoy me. The wacky shtick has its limits. Now that he no longer has his Magog eggs to obsess over, he's just the "annoying little man." People who are like that in real life wear out their welcome quickly. Act like a normal person, dammit!! When the Three-eyed alien got pulled into oblivion, the reaction of the Perseid was priceless. A nice, understated bit of humor. However, I find it highly unlikely that Harper would continue with his tricks after that. So points off for that. But . . . not bad. Not as awful an episode as I was led to believe. Cardie Artificial Intelligence Cardie, recovers from fainting spell, dusts herself off No, seriously, all you Drew bashers should look: he is willing to change his mind. I think a very few changes could have made Tunnel an outstanding episode. First, of course Trance should have warned them, unless changes to the timeline that have occurred because of her return (Tyr and Harper's survival, for instance, the retrieval of part of the Engine or Hohne's death) made her not recognize this as the occasion on which they would encounter the Derivas. Secondly, the Derivas should snatch enough folks to get their sample, then go back to their ships for the all-out attack. I know this is verboten because it would not permit Dylan to kick some Deriva butt, but it would have made sense. With these two pieces of illogic fixed, you'd have a very solid narrative. My only other objection is this introduction of previously unknown baddies when we already have the unsolved mystery of SotA. If they are somehow tied to the larger picture, rather than just substituting for the exec-despised Magog and SotA, we can still see some exciting overall continuity in S3. Cardie Rhea Purple Pixie LOL @ Drew. I liked Tunnel, too, until the second half when the aliens started obligingly standing around letting Dylan and Rommie shoot them. Then I got bored. And I have to admit that for me, there was no real feeling of jeopardy like there was with IHCRAL (or maybe suspense would be a better word - take your pick). There was very little damage to the ship, her crew or the delegates, considering that tens of thousands of ships were all attacking at once. OK, I fibbed. On second thought, I didn't like Tunnel. To me, it started with a bang and ended with a whimper. Edited to add: I see that while I was typing, Cardie obligingly listed my other objections, so I'll quit now. Delvo2 Nietzschean It seemed clear to me that Trance was up to something other than (actually in addition to) saving everyone from the Tunnelers. Remember the diplomatic assignments she's been given? Then why wasn't she in the room at the biggest diplomatic shindig of them all, when she was aboard the ship? Even Tyr was there! She was doing something. That, plus the Tunnelers' targetting of the Commonwealth, plus the fact that they possess tremendously powerful technology in the area of bending space and the dimensions, plus the fact that we've been told they were a part of the big plan all along, all indicates that they are presumably connected somehow with the SotA and Magog. Drew Purple Pixie quote: Originally posted by Delvo2: . . . plus the fact that we've been told they were a part of the big plan all along, . . . I won't believe that until I hear it from RHW himself. enTranced Squorm quote: Originally posted by Drew: I won't believe that until I hear it from RHW himself. Uh-huh. What he said. Drew : You were just more forgiving then i was. Pretty much i liked the opening like i said in my review but when the Aliens got stupid, quickly followed by Trance getting stupid i got bored....fast. And sorry, Farscape's What Was Lost was everything Tunnel wasn't : Smart, Well Written and full of real emotion and consequences. enTranced ------------------ * RHW : Andromeda has two very strong very kick butt woman already. Trance's innocent persona provided a nice contrast to Beka and Rommie and I suspect if I were still writing the show I'd miss it. * Sorta like Gold Trance is like the diet Trance, just one calorie, not Trance enough aka, TranceLite - Jid *One evil at a time, that's the best i can do. - John "Into the Lion's Den" *Damn, i gotta stop pointing guns at people! - John gets a moment of clarity. "Into the Lion's Den" *Please continue the petty bickering, i find it most intriguing! - Data "Haven" *I MOCK you with my Monkey Pants! - Oz * Don't worry i won't hurt you. I promised Chiana that! - John in Crichton Kicks jesseja Perseid i hope that tunnel is a good setup to season 3. we have the crew working together to fight a common--and hopefully worthy, much more advanced and intelligent than the magog--enemy. we have the commonwealth signatories working together. they may have truly changed the bad future that trance came from. dylan didn't save the universe, beka did, so that's a positive sign in my book. if tunnel is laying the groundwork for the transition to whatever comes next then it's a good episode. if some of the loose ends aren't wrapped up in season 3 then it was just a cheap way to threaten to kill off beka and tyr during contract negotiations, and leave us hanging all summer. Mandella Pyrian This was a fair episode, **½ rating from me. Trance acted downright stupid, the predaliens likewise and Dylan seemed to be bored by the proceedings until he got to frag some critters. I liked Zhukov and most of the other dignitaries as well. Didn't consider Harper annoying myself, kinda liked his magic tricks. The cliffhanger wasn't all that exciting, considering that Sorbo spoiled it to us some months ago. Drew Purple Pixie ^ But Harper is annoying, and it gets more obvious all the time. He's quickly becoming my least favorite character on the show. (And to think that he was once way up near the top.) They've got to remember the rule of comedy: If it bends, it's funny; If it breaks, it's not funny. Harper's constant patter is a bull in a china shop. Note to writers: Turn down the volume! Note to directors: Tell Gordon to hold back a bit. It'll probably still be too much, but it's a start. Trancemogifier Pyrian quote: Note to writers: Turn down the volume! Note to directors: Tell Gordon to hold back a bit. It'll probably still be too much, but it's a start. Seconded! Hygea Nietzschean quote: Originally posted by enTranced: And sorry, Farscape's What Was Lost was everything Tunnel wasn't : Smart, Well Written and full of real emotion and consequences. enTranced You see enTranced, this is where you and I are so different. I actually do watch Farscape, mainly because you and others brag about it all the time, but I don't like it. I had tried to watch it before, but didn't keep watching because I didn't like it. I thought I must have be missing something when others posted how good it was, but I'm not seeing it. I don't find it enjoyable and don't think it is anywhere near as good as Andromeda. However, I also don't go on the Farscape boards and brag about how much better I feel Andromeda is in comparison. I have really tried to like Farscape, but all I can think of is "it's just a dark space version of Sesame Street." I don't find the muppets believable(sp). I also find the acting inferior. I loved Claudia Black when she had a guest role on HTLJ, but I find her acting dull in Farscape. As for the writing being better, if I don't find a show enjoyable, I can't tell if it's the writing or the acting unless I can read the story that was written and be able to visualize it in my mind better than what was shown to me. Since I can't do that, I will have to say from what I have seen that the writing on Andromeda is much better.JMHO I'm sorry to have singled you out again, but since you are the one who keeps comparing the two shows like this, it seemed only fair that I show why you seem to get singled out so often. I will admit that I haven't seen an episode of Farscape since that debacle that was their season opener. My response when it was over was "What the **** was that?!?" Since I'm unemployed for the moment, I should be able to stay awake long enough to catch it this week to see if it's improved since that episode. We'll see. Hygea enTranced Squorm Hygea, i really feel your post should have been made in Sci-Fi where i keep most of my Farscape comments. The post you quoted was a direct reply to a statement Drew made to ME. But since you called me out i'll reply here. BUT i do NOT want to hijack Drew's thread. If this turns into a bash fest i'm going to edit this post to blank. quote: Originally posted by Hygea: You see enTranced, this is where you and I are so different. I actually do watch Farscape, mainly because you and others brag about it all the time, but I don't like it. So why watch it? As much as i was a Andromeda fan i now only watch the episodes that look interesting. L&R trailer was so sickening i knew right away that it would be pointless for me to watch... quote: I had tried to watch it before, but didn't keep watching because I didn't like it. I thought I must have be missing something when others posted how good it was, but I'm not seeing it. I don't find it enjoyable and don't think it is anywhere near as good as Andromeda. I see....the reason that Farscape was, is and will continue to be a critical darling is becuase it sucks. Sorry, Hygea i fully support your right to voice your opinon but you are in a minority. Farscape wins awards because it IS a quality show. quote: However, I also [b]don't go on the Farscape boards and brag about how much better I feel Andromeda is in comparison. But the sci-fi forum IS a place to discuss Farscape. And Drew commented on Farscape in this thread. What's your point? quote: I have really tried to like Farscape, but all I can think of is "it's just a dark space version of Sesame Street." I don't find the muppets believable(sp). Smokescreen! That's like me saying i hate Andromeda because of the cheap CGI! Damn that Andromeda and those crappy CGI Pyrians! Sorry, i base my dislike of a show on more then production values. And BTW, if all i DID base my love or hateing of a show was production values then Farscape would win in a instant! This season (4) it looks like Farscape even beats ENTERPRISE on it's production! quote: I also find the acting inferior. Again you are in the minority here. Ben Browder and Claudia Black are amazing and deserved all the awards and recognition they have won. Gigi earned that nomination she got. The entire cast and all the guest stars are awesome. In every interview i have read by a Farscape guest star they ALL speak of how freaking professional the cast is and how they push their game all season long. quote: I loved Claudia Black when she had a guest role on HTLJ, but I find her acting dull in Farscape. Please, PLEASE post this on The Dominion or Farscapeworld. PLEASE! I'm interested to see what response you will get.... quote: As for the writing being better, if I don't find a show enjoyable, I can't tell if it's the writing or the acting unless I can read the story that was written and be able to visualize it in my mind better than what was shown to me. Since I can't do that, I will have to say from what I have seen that the writing on Andromeda is much better.JMHO Look again. quote: I'm sorry to have singled you out again, I'm used to it. No worries. quote: ... but since you are the one who keeps comparing the two shows like this, As much as i agree with Drew on MANY things we are not the same person. You can tell us apart because i'm the cute one! quote: ... it seemed only fair that I show why you seem to get singled out so often. I will admit that I haven't seen an episode of Farscape since that debacle that was their season opener. Which any Scaper will tell you is exactly the WRONG way to watch Farscape. Andromeda is looking for casual viewers. Farscape says FRELL the casual viewer. You MUST watch each episode or you will be left behind. Some may not like that method, i welcome it with open arms. I want a show to reward me for my constant vigilant viewing. quote: My response when it was over was "What the **** was that?!?" You may be surprised to learn that that is my response to many Scape episodes. Many times i watch a episode more then once to pick up new things in a episode. They pack a LOT into each hour. quote: Since I'm unemployed for the moment, I should be able to stay awake long enough to catch it this week to see if it's improved since that episode. We'll see. Good for you. Stick with it and you will be rewarded. I would suggest checking the Farscape pages and read the summeries for the "What was Lost" two parter or YOU will be what was lost! A LOT has happened while you were away. enTranced Drew Purple Pixie quote: Originally posted by enTranced: As much as i agree with Drew on MANY things we are not the same person. You can tell us apart because i'm the cute one! I'd like a ruling. enTranced Squorm quote: Originally posted by Drew: I'd like a ruling. Well, Bossy says so and she is always right. Errr...that's what she keeps saying anyway... enTranced Dylanite Magog I just came here to see if the Brits had seen bamsr and what do I find????????? DREW!!!!!!!!!!!! hehee, okay I won't tease you too bad. I disagree with you about Dylan and Harper in this ep but I agree with you about it being allowed to ask questions and not answer them and I certainly agree with you about ensemble being what made it work. Um......don't get mad. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Drew}}}}}}}}}}}} *running away very fast* MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence ( ) quote: Originally posted by Drew: ..... Though Harper is really starting (starting? Maybe continuing) to annoy me. The wacky shtick has its limits. Now that he no longer has his Magog eggs to obsess over, he's just the "annoying little man." People who are like that in real life wear out their welcome quickly. Act like a normal person, dammit!!..... Althought Harper is my favorite character, I have yet to replay "Tunnel" without fast forwarding over his bits "entertaining" the delegates. OTOH, I liked the fact that although the ep opened with Harper being kept "far, far away from the delegates" (with, IMO, Harper's tacit agreement), it was Harper who impressed Admiral Zhukov, giving Dylan a chance to get the fleet behind him. Also liked that Harper and Dylan have one thing in common: both uncomfortable with diplomacy/politics. I've always thought that Harper is a bit like what Dylan was like when he was 19 or 20 years old, and Dylan is what Harper could become if SotA and/or whatever other Dark Side manidestations there are in the DROMiverse get their hands on them first; nice to see Matt and Joe agree with me. And did it look like Harper made a positive impression on that Inari delegate? Loved the rest of the ep; felt the final scene, with Dylan looking at the hull breach was very powerful. (Obviously I've got a kinder impression of KS' acting that you; c'est la vie.) If KS had not blabbed that Lisa and KHC would be back, I would have freaked. Hibblette Nietzschean Oh my, [Hibblette starts tapping her heels] There's no place like home, there's no place like home. [Hibblette stops, looks around] Wait! This is real? Oh my Gawd-- Drew said: quote: then why the frell didn't she say something a few days, weeks, or months earlier? If you were sent back in time to right the wrongs of Sept 11, 2001, are you going to wait until just a few minutes before the planes hit the towers to tell everyone? Of course not. Well yes, but see the truth is the reason Trance in this show didn't is because she did try this in the year 2001. But...everyone said, "oh we can't close the airlines down, they'd lose toooooo much money" Sorry couldn't resist. Anyways, I agree with you on this point. But other then that, I found the ending and the new baddies (of course they could still be connected to ol' Abby) to be most perplexing. DWF Avatar First off, who are you, and what have you done with Drew? Seriously though about Trance, she knew but it seems like she didn't know anything important, like how the Derivas got there, and what their plans are. All that she knew was, that only she and Beka survived, and she altered her appearance, to hide from the Derivas. She even split from Beka, probably to try and keep Beka safe. If you knew about 9/11 ahead of time, how could you stop it? Who'd believe you? Personally though, I liked the ep. myself. There is something I have a problem with, but I guess it doesn't matter. Cardie Artificial Intelligence ^^Well, if I knew the day, time, and targets, and no one would believe me, I'd be calling in bomb threats about those three planes and to the WTC and the Pentagon. I wouldn't wait till I could see the planes outside the windows of Windows on the World. Cardie Post Extras: Rhea Purple Pixie quote: Originally posted by Cardie: ^^Well, if I knew the day, time, and targets, and no one would believe me, I'd be calling in bomb threats about those three planes and to the WTC and the Pentagon. I wouldn't wait till I could see the planes outside the windows of Windows on the World. Cardie Agreed. That's my quarrel with Trance in this episode. I would have sat down with Dylan beforehand and said "this is what's going to happen and this is how it turned out." Then they would have had a chance to avoid the whole thing. Time travel gives me a headache. But Trance standing around doing nothing until it's pretty much too late gives me an even bigger headache. Hibblette Nietzschean There is also this-they may have avoided it at that point but what about on down the line? In fact maybe because of certain events (which is the mind boggling thing about time travel) happening that didn't happen originally she wasn't sure if the set up was the same or perhaps she thought that the mere exchange of Purple to Gold would alter it completely. Of course it didn't but I can understand that line of thinking also. Which is why this ep is so intriguing actually. First of all it is indicated that she really doesn't know who the saboteur is. But she has an idea-that's an old Purple Trance tricky-that's why she felt like she needed to go through the guest list. But I felt like she did not know who the saboteur was. In fact I got the feeling that she felt like the hordes of ships was connected to that particular saboteur. To me there were two saboteurs aboard-the Niet without bone blades and then the tunnelers. I think the Tunnelers were doing major sabotage. But I don't think she really realized this. And they never found the tunnel so there were differences in the two seperate incidents. Very intriguing actually. Post Extras: MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by Rhea: Agreed. That's my quarrel with Trance in this episode .... Trance standing around doing nothing until it's pretty much too late gives me an even bigger headache. I just thought of another explanation for this that's really very simple: Trance screwed up .... again. Trance said she came back because she "made a lot of mistakes" and wanted to fix them. Well, she may have fixed the old mistakes from the "first time" -- ie not taking Tyr to Shintaida -- but who says she can't make new mistakes this time around? She told Dylan, "I don't want to make anymore mistakes," but her silence may have been another blunder on her part, maybe even made out of a desire not to make a mistake by saying too much too soon. Whew. Now, if someone could kindly explain that to me .... Post Extras: Hibblette Nietzschean Hey MikeJoe well see that maybe sort of what I was getting at. They were discovering new things, that she didn't realize from the first time. Of course she did say that she didn't want to mess up so maybe that's ... Wait what if Purple Trance did her little "The chances are..." and that's one of the reasons they let the Ambassadors leave and that was the screw up. You know what now that I think about it Gold Trance sort of stopped doing the "chances are," bit. Maybe that is what the problem was. I could be reaching here. I realize that. In fact in BOTB she tried her darndest not to even do that with Dylan. She let the series of events play out. So perhaps that was the reason? But when things began to play out almost the same like Dylan about to let the Ambassadors leave that's when she started talking. Hmmmmmm. Post Extras: Tetzner Nietzschean Tunnel would have sucked if there hadn't been Zhukov.... But, I liked it for the cliffhanger. The rest was just boring. Post Extras: MovieImp Purple Pixie "Whack A Mole" was a great line coming from the Nietz. That and he is a great pilot. Gotta love the guy. Post Extras: Nox deSilva Artificial Intelligence To be honest, I agree with Drew about Mr. Woolvett's performances. And Mr. Sorbo's. All things considered, they don't really seem to be, I don't know.... in it. Wild speculation moment: perhaps that has something to do with ego. Actual, grounded, realist talk: perhaps it was a long season, and they both just wanted to get the damn thing done with. The Divine knows that I was in the same boat myself after they went on repeats post-"Three". But I remain realistic in my view that S3 will not only make this cliffhanger a little more resolved, it'll actually be worth the effort of tuning in on a weekly, non-casual basis. All they have to do is offer something to suspend my disbelief. Post Extras: Rayhana Artificial Intelligence I enjoyed this ep. I did like the ensamble cast and the fact they were all working together as Drew stated. I will admit, at first I did wonder why Trance didn't tell them this is where the bad future happened. But then I thought, well, maybe since she had already changed the previous future, like getting rid of Harpers larve and keeping Tyr alive by not letting him go with Beka and Trance to retrieve the engine, that perhaps she thought this might have changed other future events. I mean, we always here that in any show dealing with time travel. If you change one event all events can be affected. So, I kinda took it as she was waiting to see if the changes that had already taken place since O would have a different impact on this event. When she realized they didn't then she told Dylan what happened. Harper was Harper in this ep. Sometimes, he gets a bit carried away, but he wasn't any different in this ep then he is in many others, imho. I thought Kevin did a good job, have to disagree with Drew on that one. Spoiler space added in case any here haven't heard or read some of the articles, and other information about S3. S P O I L E R No the ending wasn't as dramatic as last years, but that could be because, 1. we already heard everyone resigned and 2. Kevin discussed the first show in S3 in an interview, leaving us with little to ponder. Other, than, how do Beka and Tyr resurface. All in all I thought it was a pretty good ep. Post Extras: MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by Rayhana: .... Kevin discussed the first show in S3 in an interview, leaving us with little to ponder .... Actually, after I saw "Tunnel," I was glad he'd done that; I would have freaked out over Beka and Tyr otherwise. Post Extras: Rayhana Artificial Intelligence If I hadn't already heard that they had all re-signed for S3 then the interview would have relieved me as well. I loved the cliffhanger in S1 but I did wonder who would be back and was afraid of the answer. So, I'm glad to know they will be there for S3 as well. Post Extras: Nox deSilva Artificial Intelligence To be honest, the fact that we were told ahead of time, to some extent, ruined the cliffhanger for me. I don't see it as a good thing either. If we knew ahead of time that Rev Bem would leave, would we still care so much about his actions throughout "Hour"/"Gyre"? Even more so, I would think. Post Extras: Dylanite Magog quote: Originally posted by Rayhana: I loved the cliffhanger in S1 but I did wonder who would be back and was afraid of the answer. I didn't. Hmmm. I knew that Tyr and Harper would be okay I just thought it was a rockin' good idea to try and figure out HOW they'd get out of it. And knowing that Beka and Tyr will be okay still leaves me with the fun of trying to figure out how they'll get out of it so it's all good. Lil Post Extras: Drew Purple Pixie quote: Originally posted by Nox: All they have to do is offer something to suspend my disbelief. Unfortunately, this show often requires that your disbelief not merely be suspended, but hung until dead. Post Extras: m_p_2001 Nietzschean Tunnel was...alright. It was nowhere near what It's Hour Come Round At Last was, but overall, not a bad episode. The one really great point was Zhukov. I am so tired of just seeing Elsabett in charge of the fleet, and having a real Admiral around was great. Plus, the guy was funny MP Post Extras: MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by m_p_2001: The one really great point was Zhukov. I am so tired of just seeing Elsabett in charge of the fleet, and having a real Admiral around was great. Plus, the guy was funny MP AND not one word about how Dylan had slept with Elsbett! Yes! As the Helix Turns (My Stomach) was off the air that night! Post Extras: Rayhana Artificial Intelligence I agree Lil trying to figure out how Tyr and Beka return is the fun part. While I thought the cliffhanger from S1 was more intense, more dramatic, I think the cliffhanger in S2 still has eliments of both, just not as obvious. I still think Tyr and Beka are amongst the wreckage, if not, I can't figure out, 1. How they would survive without EVA suits and/or 2. If they were wisked away by these new alians, with the tunnel collapsed, how would we get them back? So, the cliffhanger left me wondering, thinking and trying to figure things out. Hmmm, I think thats what a cliffhanger is suppose to do, isn't it? Nox deSilva Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by Drew: Unfortunately, this show often requires that your disbelief not merely be suspended, but hung until dead. The Golden Gate Bridge doesn't require as much suspension as my disbelief. John Burke Purple Pixie [aside] I must say I'm surprised at the number of people who loved Zhukov. While the idea of adding another ambiguous, dangerous Niet to the cast was certainly good and his lines were decent, I was completely turned off by that actor. He annoyed me no end. I sure hope we won't see too much more of him. Give me Elsbett or Charlie (yeah, I know he's expensive) anyday... [/aside] Post Extras: Hibblette Nietzschean Oh but I loved Zhukov Mr. Burke Did you see where he placed his finger when he drew the Anari ambassador closer to him? As an actress that was fascinating that he did that. What was that saying? They kept it in the show so...what does this mean? Did they plan it? Or was it just an actor doing something funky in the background. Post Extras: MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by John Burke: [aside] I must say I'm surprised at the number of people who loved Zhukov .... Give me Elsbett or Charlie (yeah, I know he's expensive) anyday... [/aside] Unfortunately, only Zhukov could return to ANDROMEDA; Charlie and Elsbett seem to have moved to the spinoff, our favorite soap opera, GENE RODDENBERRY'S AS THE HELIX TURNS (MY STOMACH). Ok, I will confess, Charlie was cool. Uber cool, even. And I loved THO; it was funny the way Elsbett misread the crew's relationships, and the way Beka played with Ellie's mind. And having enjoyed BABYLON 5, I am not against continuity per se. BUT ENOUGH'S ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I find having Dylan's tryst with Elsbett mentioned Every. Time. Someone. From Sabra-Jaguar. Comes. Aboard. to be really annoying -- it's taking a good joke and overplaying it. A few facts .... Elsbett was not married when she decided Dylan could help her feel like a woman; and Unless someone's lying, Dylan did not get Ellie pregnant. So it's almost irellevant, IMHO. I have no problem with Charlie and Ellie coming back -- but to ANDROMDEA, not AS THE HELIX TURNS (MY STOMACH). John Burke Purple Pixie But that was only referenced in two episodes... and only in a few lines. I really doubt they plan to get anymore mileage out of it, and never found it too intrusive when they did. YMMV, and obviously does... Post Extras: MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by John Burke: But that was only referenced in two episodes... and only in a few lines ..... I guess the thing that bugged me most was Beka's reaction to Ellie's admitting she did the wild thing with Dylan. Why should Beka have been upset if she has no romantic intentions towards Dylan (I hope)? You could make the case that this was the first she heard of it and was surprised, but still ..... On top of that, when you delete the repeats, ITL and BH are separated by one ep, "The Prince." Practically back to back; that bugged me, too. quote: I really doubt they plan to get anymore mileage out of it, and never found it too intrusive when they did. I didn't find it intrusive; I just felt a gag from THO had been overplayed. Post Extras: Ilisidi Nietzschean Weighing in to say that I liked this ep but hope we get more explanation on things when Season Three starts up. I know Tyr and Beka will be back but I'm interested to see where they've been hanging and how much more hanging out are they going to be doing together. I was fairly intrigued that Tyr decided to protect Beka Orpheus Nietzschean I'm being interrupted too much today for full coherence, so this'll be disjointed. But dang guys, this thread, and the thoughts it inspired, are really re-igniting my enthusiams for GRA. Quite a feat in the Long Dark between seasons 1) I borrowed a full set of Farscape S1-3 in Jan, and after watching an ep/wk (roughly), I was initially quite interested. By early/mid S-II, however, I was more ambivalent, and sill haven't finished the episodes. I intend to, but I always seem to have something better to do - which I think, reflects a deep reaction to the FS vis-à-vis my personal tastes. There are many good things in FS, to be sure, but I think I'd find less there to sustain my initial enthusiasm even if Andromeda didn't exist for comparison. However, the comparison has made me realize how many things AA has done *right* IMHO. [I may go to SF forum to discuss this more fully when I have more time) Until now, I've often felt that I wouldn't be much of an Andromeda fan if it weren't for SSBBS, but though that may be true, it'd have been a sad loss for me. For all the nits that I may have, I find Andromeda far meatier than FarScape, even if I feel it sometimes falls short of how meaty it could/should be. Perhaps that will change, as I watch the rest of the FS eps - and it's plain to me that it's just personal taste on my part - but thanks to this thread, I'm a bigger GRA fan than before. 2) While Trance has a reputation for subtle manipulations, she's made many of wholescale, dramatic, and even reckless changes, from early on (ADDB, anyone?). Gold Trance isn't free of that character trait (or flaw, as she may see it, having failed once). Trading Huhne for Harper and saving Tyr alone change he landscape of the Andromeda's experience so much that it's actually rather remarkable that it still ended up in the path of the Derivas (I imagine Dylan chose the same system both times because it was known to him pre-Fall. If Trance wasn't told the location of the secret meeting the first time ["need to know"], she may have believed she successfully changed his mind when he was actually falling back on some half-forgotten memory for his 'random' choice) Imagine what late Season II would have been like if Harper and Tyr were dead! That's the reality Purple Trance lived. Gold Trance would see the present situation as very different from her last go-round. Add some possible regret for possible drastic choices in the past, and I think she may be a bit gunshy of changing too much -the more she changes the present, the less clearly her foreknowledge applies, and I sense she sees that as a secret weapon. That doesn't fully explain her inaction, but it puts it within shooting distance of plausibility for me. I'm hoping the eventual resolution will lend true validity to her overall secrecy, but it may be nothing more than her wish to remain in control by doling out information to 'steer' her crewmates. 3) Zhukov is great. Overall, I've liked all the top Niets. Even the admittedly annoying Elspeth is a wry commentary, a light on things no other character could easily illunimate. 4) Beka would be annoyed by Elspeth's tryst regardless of her intentions toward Dylan. If someone I hated dated my boss - especially a boss I had an increasing respect for, and worked with 24/7 - I, too, would be annoyed, and I'm a fairly laissez faire guy. Still, Dylan would be a powerfully attractive figure from her perspetive, and love/respect can be hard to distinguish -if a distinction truly exists, which I question- when you add gender. 5) Yeah, Harper was a bit annoying in Tunnel, but I wouldn't tone him down much. Harper *is* an annoying little man, as much as I love him, and just as in real life, you can't just 'fix' them. It's part of how he copes with traume, and an important part of the show (including the fact that he goes over the top when under stress). That's why Harper annoys dignitaries -I'd rather be shown than told- and highlights Tyr's and Beka's very different but often very effective skills as negotiators By and large, the crew is compelling for their inner strength and sincerity, and all are wounded heroes (including Trance, since the swap), yet each displays a different side of complex human nature. Their varying approaches to diplomacy -to making contact across the gulf between individuals- is high art. I give GRA kudos for casting fine distinctions in high relief - e.g. Dylan, Tyr, Beka, Trance and even Harper (cf. Jospeh Weizenbaum's original description of the driving force behind the 'hacker' - a term he invented) each have an element of control freak in them, yet this trait isn't cast in a single mold. Okay, he's annoying. So (as each of the crew has said at some point) are the Magog -their rapacious nature, not their bouncing teddy bear antics- that's essential to their role in Andromeda. Laugh, cry or kiss you a$$ goodbye. 6) IMHO, Tunnel needs further justification (in a follow-up ep?) to be compelling and significant. Right now, it's too 'Bad Guy of the Week' for me. Here's hoping... gah... I'm not making sense even to myself. No time to edit ... must ... hit... "Submit". DWF Avatar ^^^Interesting viewpoint of Trance there, and I'd loved to hear you're views about Farscape, it seems like they're alot like y own. Post Extras: Anakam Purple Pixie JMO on Trance not saying anything until almost the last minute . . . . Sometimes, the timeline needs to have certain things happen in it to be as *we* want it to be. Or, in this case, as Trance wants it to be. If it is played with too early, the consequences could easily be even more horrible. Those who play with the timeline, no matter what the reason(s), are playing a very dangerous game indeed, with all of future history as their potential playground and disaster area. I didn't quite get the BotB reference, but I think that's why Trance has been playing a minimal role in altering events in the timeline between when she came back and the time she came back from. If she had warned the rest of the crew earlier, I'm not certain what good it would have done. It's possible the fleet would have been in an even more vulnerable position, and more lives--specifically, more people from more CW worlds--might have been lost. And yes, I do think it's entirely possible that an early warning by Trance might have moved the entire timeline of the episode up. Remember that whatever Trance came back to fix, she's trying to keep the balance. And sometimes keeping the balance requires doing things that seem illogical, hurtful, and result in the loss (if only temporary) of people one cares about. Post Extras: MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence enTranced wrote: quote: I see....the reason that Farscape was, is and will continue to be a critical darling is becuase it sucks. Just because critics love -- or hate -- something doesn't mean every single member of the audience will. Think of any movie or TV show that you liked and critcs hated, or vis versa. Point proven. If I like something, I watch it; what critics do or don't say about it has no bearing on my decision. Post Extras: Rayhana Artificial Intelligence I agree MikeJoe. Critics have often praised shows or movies, that I finally watched and didn't care much for and vice versa. To me critics are just another viewer stating their personal opinions and prefrences. We all have different tastes. Post Extras: Jessica Human Just re-watched Tunnel. I liked it better this time because I knew Trance was going to come out with her "warning" when she did--last time it really bugged me. Actually, what I find really puzzling isn't so much Trance's strange timing as everyone else's reaction. I'd have thought that at least one of her crewmates would have been upset at her for not warning them earlier. Dylan and Tyr in particular are unhappy with surprises. I really do like Zhukov, though, and Harper's showdown with him is marvelous! So is the bit where Z & Tyr try to stare one another down in the hallway. The empty (?) Maru was a lot more chilling this time through. Post Extras: Anakam Purple Pixie ^ Yeah, I get a little more nervous each time I watch the Maru scene at the end. At least time is passing by and I will find out what happened in 10 weeks or so.