Wooden Perception.... enTranced Squorm Quick Take - The Trees's almost ruin it but even despite a horrid ending there is still some fun left in this episode. __________________ SPOILERS that keep some old dude on ice! 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Well, this is it, the final nail in the Niets coffin. There are no longer the top of the food chain and that could be the best thing to happen to the spike boyz and girlz. I mean i never bought them being superior to us and i don't think the writers did either. Even last year they were pretty weak. And now we have the Genites who are hunting them and doing a pretty good job. Now we have them on the defense and that is a good thing i think. Suddenly they are actualy pretty interesting after all. Actualy the Genites were the best part of this episode, they are the first SMART bad guys we have had in a long time. I LIKED these guys and the danger they brought to the crew. To bad they almost compleatly blew it at the end. Another messiah baby. Why? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY? A great possible re-occuring character Freya gets killed. *ugh* It would have been so great having Tyr's kid killed and having a great powerful ending but he ends up being alive making KHC's best performence to date a sham. And &&*^%$ing Dylan &&^%$*ing knew it all along!!!! ARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH! I hate Super Powerful God Emperor Dylan!!!! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH! *shudder* Still besides all of that there is STILL worth to this episode. So i will be merciful. Besides those seripham pods kicked some serious butt. 7/10. Not as good as last week, but still much better then what we have had since Ouroborus. enTranced MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence Ok, I'm of two minds here .... Has enTranced returned to us? Or has FalseenTranced learned to tone it down after praising TKDTD? Can't tell. Next week will tell us. Yes, next week. Hibblette Nietzschean Ah Entranced you do realize you run the risk of being smited with the 'wooden' reference. [Hibby shakes head as she walks away.] MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by Hibblette: Ah [b]Entranced you do realize you run the risk of being smited with the 'wooden' reference. [Hibby shakes head as she walks away.] [/B] Oh, crap, you're right. Hibblette Nietzschean Oh MikeJoe, just remember we are not of the wooden referencers. We will survive. And Entranced on a serious note, I have to agree with you in regards to the KGP. They are some very smart A-hole enemies. And no it is not a sham. It just reasserts that the Nietzcheans have a problem with team work. MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence quote:Originally posted by Hibblette: Oh [b]MikeJoe, just remember we are not of the wooden referencers. We will survive. [/B] One word: Shrapnel. quote: And [b]Entranced on a serious note, I have to agree with you in regards to the KGP. They are some very smart A-hole enemies. And no it is not a sham. It just reasserts that the Nietzcheans have a problem with team work. [/B] On top of that, the KGP have the combination of surprise and cutting edge HG battle-tech (more advanced than Andromeda!) on their side. And going after small prides doesn't hurt much either. Hibblette Nietzschean ^Yea the smaller weaker prides was a good point. After that little snit tantrum that the ol' boy had when Dylan was obviously going to try and help the Orca, I do have to say that even Charley could take these guys on. Dylanite Magog hmmmm. Did someone mention smites for wooden references? I'll pass actually. eT, I think Dylan knowing what Tyr was going to do is not a function of him being all knowing super Dylan. I think it's a function of him "Understanding" what it really means to "trust Tyr to be Tyr". The mention of Freya's betrayal was actually made in DH. Dylan picked up on it and good for him. Does not in my view make him a super superior being, just a guy who has finally started to accept Tyr for Tyr. My views. Lil MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by Dylanite: hmmmm. Did someone mention smites for wooden references? I'll pass actually. OMG! ! First -- FalseenTranced; now, FalseDylanite!? We're being replaced!!!!! Who's next? Who's next? Dylanite Magog ^ Actually, my goal is to treat eT like I'm taking him seriously (which I am) instead of automatically discounting his opinion simply because he's a naysayer and thinks the Nietz are boring. Of course, how he responds will be indicative of whether I was correct in adopting this approach.. Lil MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by Dylanite: ^ Actually, my goal is to treat eT like I'm taking him seriously (which I am) instead of automatically discounting his opinion simply because he's a naysayer and thinks the Nietz are boring. Of course, how he responds will be indicative of whether I was correct in adopting this approach.. Oh. Ok. And this shows how observant I'm not because I didn't realize eT found Niets "boring." Dylanite Magog ^ You didn't see his review of Music of a Distant Drum. Lil MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by Dylanite: ^ You didn't see his review of Music of a Distant Drum. True. enTranced Squorm quote: Originally posted by Hibblette: And [b]Entranced on a serious note, I have to agree with you in regards to the KGP. They are some very smart A-hole enemies. And no it is not a sham. It just reasserts that the Nietzcheans have a problem with team work. [/B] The Genites are really fascinating and it allows Andromeda to explore a serious relevent topic for once. That is not a bad thing at all. I just hope they don't blow it. The ending was very worrying. I was so disapointed by having KHC's best performence ruined. I mean for a few tiny seconds i was seeing what the TYRants saw in the guy. I was actualy wide awake during a Tyr scene for the first time in...well...forever and then to have it all swept away. *sigh* enTranced enTranced Squorm quote: Originally posted by Dylanite: eT, I think Dylan knowing what Tyr was going to do is not a function of him being all knowing super Dylan. I think it's a function of him "Understanding" what it really means to "trust Tyr to be Tyr". The mention of Freya's betrayal was actually made in DH. Dylan picked up on it and good for him. Does not in my view make him a super superior being, just a guy who has finally started to accept Tyr for Tyr. My views. Lil There was no way, no WAY that Dylan could have picked up on it. There was no proof, no evidence and given Tyr's amazing performence Dylan should not even have suspected let alone caught on so quickly! However i will allow that i was already disapointed that it WAS a scam so i was already feeling nitpicky! It's to bad, if IP had ended better this could have been one of the best of the season. enTranced Squorm quote: Originally posted by Dylanite: ^ You didn't see his review of Music of a Distant Drum. I think you mean Music of a Distant Tree! enTranced MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by enTranced: There was no way, no WAY that Dylan could have picked up on it .... Dylan knows Tyr, though. Remember that 2-parter from the first season of MIAMI VICE, "The Golden Triangle"? Remember how the second part was a chess game -- a battle of wits -- between Castillo and his old adversary, General Lao Li? And how Castillo won because he knews his enemy and could anticipate his moves (which was wicked cool, IMHO)? That's all that Dylan's doing -- anticipating Tyr's moves ..... while Tyr anticipates Dylan's .... and the only way to win is to get what they want without killing each other. And the big deal is ... ? Rhea Purple Pixie Aw, c'mon, enTranced, honey. Dylan knowing that Tyr's child was alive was no stroke of genius. He vanished for five days after Orca pride was destroyed. You'd have to be a dimwit not to know that he'd taken the kid somewhere safe. As for the Genites, they're overgrown bullies. If they were really cool (especially with all that great technology) they'd be taking on the big Niet prides, not doing the equivalent of culling the weakest member of a herd and cutting it to pieces. I agree they're more interesting (in a really repulsive sort of way) than most of the enemies we've seen on Andromeda. enTranced Squorm quote: Originally posted by Rhea: Aw, c'mon, enTranced, honey. Dylan knowing that Tyr's child was alive was no stroke of genius. He vanished for five days after Orca pride was destroyed. You'd have to be a dimwit not to know that he'd taken the kid somewhere safe. The Astroid went boom, the refugee ships went boom! quote: As for the Genites, they're overgrown bullies. If they were really cool (especially with all that great technology) they'd be taking on the big Niet prides, not doing the equivalent of culling the weakest member of a herd and cutting it to pieces. I agree they're more interesting (in a really repulsive sort of way) than most of the enemies we've seen on Andromeda. The fact that they ARE bullies and that they hunt an entire RACE of bullies makes them pretty darn cool in my book! Sure they are small potatoes to the likes of the Suliban, Dominon or the PK's but the fact remains that they are the single most interesting baddies that NuAndromeda has to offer and when you are dying of thirst anything liquid looks pretty good. enTranced Hibblette Nietzschean To me enTranced the whole performance at the end includes the story of what happened to him standing there hearing Dylans Theory and not blinking an eye so to speak. That's all connected. And I think Dylan knows that the kid is alive and realizes that Tyr is not going to acknowledge it for the safety of the child which says volumes for Tyr. Of course I think the kid would be better off at a wayist temple then with that idiot Matriarch but.... Anarch Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by enTranced: There was no way, no WAY that Dylan could have picked up on it. There was no proof, no evidence and given Tyr's amazing performence Dylan should not even have suspected let alone caught on so quickly! Sure there is. I knew (or at least, suspected very very very strongly) within two seconds that Tyr was doing a put-up job. And I knew for exactly the same reason Dylan knew: because I trusted Tyr to be Tyr. Admittedly, I had a few advantages that Dylan didn't -- I was able to see the decision-making process, note the directing and editing of the scene and (more importantly) note what wasn't shown... but that probably doesn't compare to having spent almost every day of the last two years in a man's presence. And besides, you're making a crucial mistake: you're assuming that Dylan actually knew. Who's to say he wasn't going on a fishing expedition himself? Hell, if I were around a character as notoriously untrustworthy as Tyr, I'd probably throw some speculations out there too... not because I thought they were true, necessarily, but because I'd want to see how he responded to them. All in all: even though I hated the reveal in the ending (and didn't much care for the second Dylan/Tyr meeting, for different reasons), I think you're making much ado about nothing here. enTranced Squorm quote: Originally posted by Anarch: All in all: even though I hated the reveal in the ending (and didn't much care for the second Dylan/Tyr meeting, for different reasons), I think you're making much ado about nothing here. Maybe, maybe not. Given the godawful way they have written Dylan this season, to once again go the All Knowing All Seeing Superhero route again was a tragic mistake. It bad enough in any episode, but when they do it on a otherwise decent episode it stands out even worse. DS9 didn't do this, Farscape doesn't do this and Andromeda didn't do this last season. enTranced Avalon Nietzschean quote: Originally posted by Hibblette: Of course I think the kid would be better off at a wayist temple then with that idiot Matriarch but.... HIBBS! I love it! Tamerlaine (er, sp?) grows up with a very unusual outlook on life (for a Nietzschean), and at his side, a trusted Wayist advisor who was once a shipmate of his father's... Rhea Purple Pixie quote: Originally posted by enTranced: Maybe, maybe not. Given the godawful way they have written Dylan this season, to once again go the All Knowing All Seeing Superhero route again was a tragic mistake. It bad enough in any episode, but when they do it on a otherwise decent episode it stands out even worse. DS9 didn't do this, Farscape doesn't do this and Andromeda didn't do this last season. enTranced I still don't agree. When Tyr was found after five days but NOT dead the first thing we figured is that he'd taken the baby somewhere. It also wasn't hard to figure out that Tyr had a personal reason for going off like that. Dylan knows about Orca pride and what happened then. Tyr never does ANYTHING without an ulterior motive, ergo the Genites hunting down the small prides plus Freya's being in a small pride = Tyr riding to the rescue. No rocket science involved. Hibblette Nietzschean Hey Avalon, well these guys have got to get past this not working together and stabbing each other in the back. That is exactly what happened to them after The Battle of Witchhead. I am of the belief that teamwork starts with the attitude of "All for one and one for all." And currently and from the beginning the Nietzcheans have never had this concept, and they need it or they are doomed. And Rhea not only those points but the fact that the KGP guy revealed to Dylan that quite possibly this messiah kid was down on that Asteroid. That's why Dylan says what he does to Tyr in that scene about "is your son the Messiah." Which said to me, "okay fine, you don't want to admit it that he's alive, but I have to ask." That's why Tyr says, "what does it matter he is dead." I really was glad though that they showed the kid alive. But that's just me. enTranced Squorm quote: Originally posted by Rhea: I still don't agree. When Tyr was found after five days but NOT dead the first thing we figured is that he'd taken the baby somewhere. It also wasn't hard to figure out that Tyr had a personal reason for going off like that. Dylan knows about Orca pride and what happened then. Tyr never does ANYTHING without an ulterior motive, ergo the Genites hunting down the small prides plus Freya's being in a small pride = Tyr riding to the rescue. No rocket science involved. Bottom Line : Guess i'm not much of a Andromeda apologist. *shrug* We can at least agree that there was still much to like about this episode anyway! Hey a grade of "C" is pretty good for the show these days! enTranced enTranced Squorm quote: Originally posted by Hibblette: I really was glad though that they showed the kid alive. But that's just me. Nah! I'm from the darker is better Sci-Fi club! I HATE being spoon fed! Leave me guessing then surprise me down the road! Or even better take a dramatic chance and keep the kid dead! Give KHC a nice dramatic bone to chew on! enTranced marks another X on his calender, counting the days till Farscape returns... enTranced Obiwan Artificial Intelligence I agree with enTranced that not showing the child alive would have made for a stronger, darker ending. It wasn't as if I needed to see the child to believe he survived; it was all there in KHCs layered monologue to Dylan. Cobb proved one again how good an actor he is, getting across both the pain of loss and clearly, at least to me – and to Dylan -- using it to cover a deceit. The fact that he reappears after five days is the clincher; in all that time, the Andromeda was searching for him in and around the system and could find no trace. Thus, the only explanation is that he left the system. And the only reason to leave the system was to see his child delivered safely to a place of refuge. I saw through Tyr in the first 15 seconds, even as KHC’s delivery had me wanting to believe everything he said was true. I cannot put Dylan on a superhero pedestal for seeing the obvious. On the contrary, had he not called Tyr on the lie -- and then not pressed the issue -- my respect for Dylan would have faltered. bossysister Artificial Intelligence I'm still of two minds about this episode. I think I was too tired when I watched it last night. I guess I'll have to make the sacrifice and watch it again. Seriously, I'm not quite sure what I think of the episode. KHC's performance at the end was excellent. The KGP have definite potential. Be back later when I have more to say. QueenTiye Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by enTranced: There was no way, no WAY that Dylan could have picked up on it. There was no proof, no evidence and given Tyr's amazing performence Dylan should not even have suspected let alone caught on so quickly! However i will allow that i was already disapointed that it WAS a scam so i was already feeling nitpicky! It's to bad, if IP had ended better this could have been one of the best of the season. enTranced enTranced, Here's my take. We already know that Tyr does something uncharacteristic - everybody does a double-take. Clear warning - Tyr - don't talk. Tyr talks. Suspicions have to be raised - why is he drawing down fire on his own position? Reason? He's got to do something to ensure that everyone knows the child is dead. Tyr disappears for 5 days after the Orca pride is blown completely to bits. Then he comes back singing a very sad story of losing his wife and child. I don't think it took very much for Dylan to at least guess that this was a possibility (having already been tipped off by the Genites that they are, in fact, looking for this Nietzschean Messiah). What made the ending scene so much cooler than any other scene - was that both men knew (imho) what was going on - that the deception was necessary - and Dylan respected it. Tyr never denies anything that Dylan says - and that's telling. And Dylan never asks where Tyr was hiding for 5 days, or how he survived. The point of that scene is the amount of understanding between these two men - and personally, I loved it! QT John Burke Purple Pixie For myself, I liked the final shot of the baby, alive. I'll admit that I prefer to have some things spelled out for me-- I hate having to make inferences based on things never shown onscreen-- but in this case, I really think the scene worked. It lends a mythic, almost epic heir to the story... yes, the battle is lost and Tyr is miserable, but hiding in the shadows we have this tiny hope for the future, sleeping the sleep of the innocents... for now. I think it's a nice touch. Edited because I just realized that should have been "air" up there, not "heir." Though in this context, "heir" also works... Dylanite Magog ^ *Nods in complete agreement with John Burke* Lil enTranced Squorm Hmmm...i find it interesting that everyone asumes just because Tyr had not been found for 5 days that he had left then returned. With the debris from the Astroid base and the wreakedge of the Orca refugee fleet plus the Genite attack ships i think 5 days is pretty realistic considering that we don't have Star Trek sensors here! Meh, i don't know, i guess a case could be made but it's not one i really want to build. Personaly i think this show would be so much better if Dylan was invited to airlock 1 without a suit.... enTranced Broph Nietzschean quote: Originally posted by enTranced: Hmmm...i find it interesting that everyone asumes just because Tyr had not been found for 5 days that he had left then returned. IMHO he had to have left and returned. We don't really know where the Matriarch and baby are, but I severely doubt they're still in the asteroid field. I think that it took Tyr a couple of days to find a good home for them - where they'd be safe and where he could find them easily enough. He wouldn't have trusted the Matriarch just to leave on her own with the baby - he set them down on some rock and took off, leaving her without a slip-capable vehicle (as Beka threatened to do with Trance). BTW, did you notice that everyone kinda wished Trance had been there? They didn't dwell on it, but still. Anyway, how many days does it take to attend a state funeral - surely she would have been back with them by the time they found Tyr. Or did she not know where to go for the rendezvous? Was she sitting somewhere in space for 5 days saying "OK, I'll give them 3 more days and if they don't show up, I'm leaving". But then again, Trance always knows where to find people, things, people's things... MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by Dylanite: ^ *Nods in complete agreement with John Burke* Lil Ditto. And by extension, the KGP could evelove from armored-Klansmen-in-space to epic level villians in their own right, but that's just me. MikeJoe Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by Broph: .... Anyway, how many days does it take to attend a state funeral ..... What kind of drinks would they have served there? This is still Trance "Hic!" Gemini we're talking about! Rhea Purple Pixie quote: Originally posted by enTranced: Hmmm...i find it interesting that everyone asumes just because Tyr had not been found for 5 days that he had left then returned. With the debris from the Astroid base and the wreakedge of the Orca refugee fleet plus the Genite attack ships i think 5 days is pretty realistic considering that we don't have Star Trek sensors here! Meh, i don't know, i guess a case could be made but it's not one i really want to build. Personaly i think this show would be so much better if Dylan was invited to airlock 1 without a suit.... enTranced Ah, but Tyr wasn't found drifting in a damaged space ship or anything...one minute we have a hail, the next minute he strides onto the bridge. Nox deSilva Artificial Intelligence quote: Originally posted by Rhea: Ah, but Tyr wasn't found drifting in a damaged space ship or anything...one minute we have a hail, the next minute he strides onto the bridge. It was the hangar deck, I think. Everyone just happened to be there. It's like Tyr's surprise birthday party, only, it wasn't really his birthday, he wasn't in the mood for a party, and there was no real surprise. Which means that all we're left with is Tyr. I'll alert the media.... Hibblette Nietzschean I also think we are shown that those curly locks that we could see previously on the child had been snipped. Also, one reason I like that they showed the kid is that, we know he's there, TPTB gave us the glimpse and it's pretty much a steady state path ahead. Not to say the path is not going to have some twists and turns and bumps but it's pretty well set with even possible further stories. Otherwise if they had left it dangling they could easily come back in oh say the final season and say, "Oh well the kid did die. We just wanted ya'll to keep frettin' over it." Which would PO me off big time. Just a new 'perception' to the whole thing about the kid being shown at the end. tovesun Perseid quote: originally posted by enTranced Given the godawful way they have written Dylan this season, to once again go the All Knowing All Seeing Superhero route again was a tragic mistake. SNIP DS9 didn't do this, Farscape doesn't do this and Andromeda didn't do this last season. Not that I agree with the "All Knowing All Seeing Superhero" diagnosis but the "phenomenon" (to choose a more neutral term ) certainly did occur in S1. In THO, for example, I would class Dylan's deductions about the presence of a Sabra fleet hidden behind a gas giant in the Jaguar system (and his consequent manipulation of the two Prides to unite against the Dragans) with the best of S2 "All Knowing All Seeing Superhero". Tove enTranced Squorm quote: Originally posted by tovesun: Not that I agree with the "All Knowing All Seeing Superhero" diagnosis but the "phenomenon" (to choose a more neutral term ) certainly did occur in S1. In THO, for example, I would class Dylan's deductions about the presence of a Sabra fleet hidden behind a gas giant in the Jaguar system (and his consequent manipulation of the two Prides to unite against the Dragans) with the best of S2 "All Knowing All Seeing Superhero" Tove True, but he also made a equal number of mistakes in season one. Not to mention even when he was right last year he lacked the nail grating SMUGNESS that just makes you want to stick his forcelance up his [BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP]. Dylan was never my favorite character but he was never this bad on RHW's influence. enTranced Rujevit Nietzschean I agree with the title. I always perceive Mr. Cobb's performance as forced and unnatural. I don't see how people could like his acting. ^I don't think it's a flame. Avalon Nietzschean quote: Originally posted by Broph: But then again, Trance always knows where to find people, things, people's things... Yeah, that's just the thing -- Trance had to be away or the writers would have been stuck trying to explain how suddenly Trance, who could pick the right prison planet out of thousands without a moment's hesitation, couldn't find Tyr in a relatively small debris field in less than 5 days. And hey, maybe it was the kind of alien state funeral where the ceremony just goes on for days and days... Norville Nietzschean >I always perceive Mr. Cobb's performance as forced and unnatural. I don't see how people could like his acting. Simply because I see a lot of seething emotion behind Tyr's cold, stoic act, and I personally think it's done well. I like it that he's dangerous but usually speaks softly (the yelling outbursts get a bit predictable). I don't see him as wooden. This is just how I see it. You don't see it. Fine. Broph Nietzschean quote: Originally posted by Avalon: Yeah, that's just the thing -- Trance had to be away or the writers would have been stuck trying to explain how suddenly Trance, who could pick the right prison planet out of thousands without a moment's hesitation, couldn't find Tyr in a relatively small debris field in less than 5 days. One of the few good things about NuTrance is that we now have plausible explanations for her absence. She takes a slipfighter ahead to prepare for evacuation; she attends a state funeral; she at least does something besides hide out in hydroponics or Obs deck or something when there's plenty of action going on (that she could be running away from). enTranced Squorm quote: Originally posted by Broph: One of the few good things about NuTrance is that we now have plausible explanations for her absence. She takes a slipfighter ahead to prepare for evacuation; she attends a state funeral; she at least does [b]something besides hide out in hydroponics or Obs deck or something when there's plenty of action going on (that she could be running away from).[/B] I used to feel depressed when Trance disapeared for an episode. Now with the onslaught of FalseTrance i just feel a sick relief. enTranced jesseja Perseid quote: Originally posted by Broph: One of the few good things about NuTrance is that we now have plausible explanations for her absence. She takes a slipfighter ahead to prepare for evacuation; she attends a state funeral; she at least does [b]something besides hide out in hydroponics or Obs deck or something when there's plenty of action going on (that she could be running away from).[/B] boy, are you an optimist. this is like reagan's story about the boy who sees the pile of manure and starts digging because "there's got to be a pony in there somewhere!" not a trance fan but i agree they've destroyed her. they've sexed her up and dumbed her down for what reason? enTranced Squorm quote: Originally posted by jesseja: boy, are you an optimist. this is like reagan's story about the boy who sees the pile of manure and starts digging because "there's got to be a pony in there somewhere!" not a trance fan but i agree they've destroyed her. they've sexed her up and dumbed her down for what reason? None at all that i can see. What little threadbare story they have given FalseTrance hasn't been used AT ALL. When they finaly do decide to do something it's in the finale and it's a stupid "Oh gee these are the baddies that killed you all, tee-hee". Whether or not this drags the show down to ruin remains to be seen, but they are sure trying their hardest. enTranced