Pronunciation of names
 
BunRab
 

 
 
Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/19 05:35 PM
     

Cuchalain - I have always been under the impression that, at least in our time, this was pronounced Cullen. (Gaelic, any dialect, has relatively little correspondence between spelling and pronunciation as we know it in English.) I could be wrong on this- what I know of Gaelic pronunciation comes mostly from songs - so could someone who speaks some variety of Gaelic correct me on that?

If I'm correct... So why, on the show, is it pronounced the way it's spelled? Do we assume that in the far future they've forgotten how things were pronounced? Or that our translators don't know how to pronounce it? In the normal course of things (harking back to a linguistics thread somewhere, vaguely), if anything, pronunciation gets shorter and shorter - just as we no longer pronounce the "gh" in most words that have it, such as knight, night, wrought, etc. - and more and more letters become silent - even over the course of only a couple centuries. (Brighton was spelled Brighthelmstone until the 18th century, and was pronounced Brighton for about a century with the old spelling, till they changed it in Georgian times; of course, even the "gh" in there is already silent... and let's not even talk about Cholmondely...)

Or are we assuming that the old names were revived from written records, and no one actually knew the pronunciations so they are all being pronounced the way they're spelled? And if so, why is Nietzschean being pronounced correctly?

And, Home Fires hasn't aired here yet - what horrors have they done to the pronunciation of Telemachus?

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BunRab
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Rhea
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/19 08:07 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by BunRab:
Cuchalain - I have always been under the impression that, at least in our time, this was pronounced Cullen. (Gaelic, any dialect, has relatively little correspondence between spelling and pronunciation as we know it in English.) I could be wrong on this- what I know of Gaelic pronunciation comes mostly from songs - so could someone who speaks some variety of Gaelic correct me on that?


And, Home Fires hasn't aired here yet - what horrors have they done to the pronunciation of Telemachus?


Cuchulain was actually originally two words that mean "Cullen's hound." The correct pronunciation is actually "Koo-hullin" or "Cu-hoo-lun" (you get the idea). Koo-kullin ain't even close.

My favorite thus far is Nez Perce. The Nez Perce themself prounce it Nez Purse (a mispronunciation of the French, which would be pronounced Nay Persay).

As for Telemachus (tuh-LEM-uh-kuhs), what do want to bet they pronounce it Tell-a-MOCK-us?

There are a lot of examples of mispronunciation in DROM episodes, but these are fresh in my mind because they're recent.

Hey Zack/Ash and the other writers, why doesn't someone give the actors pronunciation notes?

I seem to remember Brent misprounouncing "fiat lux" too.

[This message has been edited by Rhea (edited November 19, 2001).]

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Christopher
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/19 09:13 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by Rhea:
Hey Zack/Ash and the other writers, why doesn't someone give the actors pronunciation notes?

Good idea. On the Star Trek shows, it's routine for every script to have a pronunciation guide page at the beginning.


BunRab
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/19 09:25 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by Rhea:
As for Telemachus (tuh-LEM-uh-kuhs), what do want to bet they pronounce it Tell-a-MOCK-us?

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm afraid of. C'mon, crew, repeat after me, Greek names are pronounced on the antepenultimate syllable. PerSEPHone. O-DYSseus. EuRYdice. Antepenultimate. Antepenultimate. Oh well, too late to do anything about it now. But, definitely, a pronunciation guide for the cast would be nice. That way all of us with a little too much education wouldn't be harping on these small bits!

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Rhea
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/19 10:56 PM
     

ROTFL! You're not the only one. I was sitting yelling "not Nez Pierce!" at the screen during USV. With USV, they're now 0 for 2 (including Honey Offering) with Cuchalain Nez Perce's entire name.

I love all of the literary refs, but I wish they'd give the actors the correct pronunciation for them.

[This message has been edited by Rhea (edited November 19, 2001).]

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Denmark Vesey
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/20 04:54 AM
     

Picky, Picky, Picky

I suppose we would prefer that the Nietzscheans be given names more appropriate for a Bond film, Jaws, Odd Job, and of course given Nietzschean proclivities, P***y Galore?

How about we merely, enjoy the odd cross- cultural juxtaposition of names that tends to be the true Nietzschean talent.


luvreading
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/20 05:06 AM
     

If it helps, try to remember that, as far as I can tell, most of the Earth based languages are considered dead. French, Latin, Greek.

I can only assume that certain words, specifically names,have been translated in to Common.

Something is always lost in translation.
pl

edited to add; The Norse Tyr gave up his hand for the betterment of all. A very un-Nietzschean thing to do.

[This message has been edited by luvreading (edited November 20, 2001).]


Christopher
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/20 02:31 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by BunRab:
C'mon, crew, repeat after me, Greek names are pronounced on the antepenultimate syllable. PerSEPHone. O-DYSseus. EuRYdice. Antepenultimate. Antepenultimate.

Umm... does that mean we should be saying APollo and AThena? And how do you apply that rule to names like Zeus or Hera? Of course, all linguistic "rules" are just guidelines. And besides, are we to believe that there was only one dialect of Greek? In such a geographically divided land with so many isolated populations?

Anyway, if we were really being faithful, we wouldn't say "Ath-ens," we'd say "At-hens." And "Persep'hone" and "Orp'heus" and "P'haet'hon." But try that and people will just look at you funny. For that matter, some of the spellings have been changed, Latinized. I think Zeus was more like "Zios," and the Y's in Greek words as we know them were originally upsilons, U's (but the symbol for that looks like a Y, so the Romans misread it as such). So "Odysseus" should probably be "Odussios" if we really want to be authentic about it.


Rhea
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/20 03:48 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by Denmark Vesey:
Picky, Picky, Picky

I suppose we would prefer that the Nietzscheans be given names more appropriate for a Bond film, Jaws, Odd Job, and of course given Nietzschean proclivities, P***y Galore?

How about we merely, enjoy the odd cross- cultural juxtaposition of names that tends to be the true Nietzschean talent.


LOL Well, as far as I'm concerned, if they can pronounce Nietzsche correctly, they can pronounce the other names correctly. And can you imagine the genealogically obsessed Nietzscheans, who obviously chose their pride names for their historical/mythical meaning, *not* taking the time to learn the correct pronunciation of their names? Geesh! I'm not a Niet, but I did a family genealogy for my mother, and by the time I was done I knew the correct pronunciation for every name on it.

And it *is* jarring if you know better. For instance, a lot of people didn't get the "fiat lux" comment Rev made during one episode (brain drain occuring - the episode where they used up all the nova bombs), partly because Brent mispronounced it. Even those who don't understand Latin probably would have gotten the reference if it had been pronounced correctly.

[This message has been edited by Rhea (edited November 20, 2001).]

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Zack Stentz
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/20 08:43 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by Christopher:
Good idea. On the Star Trek shows, it's routine for every script to have a pronunciation guide page at the beginning.

We do. They mostly ignore it. You don't even want to hear how they pronounced "basilisk" before we looped it.

Zack


Rhea
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/20 08:59 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by Zack Stentz:
We do. They mostly ignore it. You don't even want to hear how they pronounced "basilisk" before we looped it.

Zack


ROTFLMAO! Ego te absolvo. I humbly apologize for even *suggesting* that you guys had anything to do with garbled prounucation.


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BunRab
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/20 09:12 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by Zack Stentz:
We do. They mostly ignore it. You don't even want to hear how they pronounced "basilisk" before we looped it.

Zack


Thanks Zack! I should have known you guys were holding up your end!

(Now my mind is wandering down some dark paths, wondering how can one mispronounce basilisk? And then remembering how my students pronounce asterisk, let alone ampersand, I run screaming in horror.)

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BunRab
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Starshine in Night Mists
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/20 09:22 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by BunRab:
(Now my mind is wandering down some dark paths, wondering how can one mispronounce basilisk?)

My money's on BASE-elisk.

SiNM

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Rhea
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/20 11:36 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by Starshine in Night Mists:
My money's on BASE-elisk.


LOL! This is fun. Or bathelisk or base-ILL-isk or....think how many people can't pronounce anemone.

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Starshine in Night Mists
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/20 11:43 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by Rhea:
LOL! This is fun. Or bathelisk or base-ILL-isk or....think how many people can't pronounce anemone.


Um... Uh-NEH-muh-nee?


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Rhea
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/21 12:29 AM
     

quote:
Originally posted by Starshine in Night Mists:

Um... Uh-NEH-muh-nee?

I'm amazed how many people say something like Uh-MEM-un-ee or some variant. :rolleeys:

I'm still contemplating basilisk....

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Rangie
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/21 03:43 AM
     

[Insert standard "throatwobbler mangrove" quip here]

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Raven
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/21 02:18 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by BunRab:
And then remembering how my students pronounce asterisk, let alone ampersand, I run screaming in horror.



How can they mess up ampersand? Pronounced the d maybe?

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Christopher
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/21 02:18 PM
     

What gets me is when people say "So-sal Security" instead of "Social Security." I think some people, including our wise beloved tongue-tied commander-in-chief, just say "Sosecurity."

And then there's when people say "nuptual" instead of "nuptial." Where'd that U come from? I guess they're thinking of "mutual," "virtual," etc.

What I hate on TV shows is when Character A hears a word or name from Character B for the first time, and then pronounces it differently than Character B did. For instance, there was this show years ago where the English-accented lead character was trying to teach a girl raised by wolves to speak English. He taught her the word "girl," but with his accent it came out "gehl." "Gehl, gehl," he prompted her. "Gurrl," she replied.


BunRab
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/21 05:04 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by Raven:
How can they mess up ampersand? Pronounced the d maybe?

A lot of them are people who don't have terrific reading skills - who knows what weird methods they were taught to ready by, in the past 18-20 years - so they look at the first and last letters and sorta guess. Advertisement. Andand. Anchor. That a-thingy. "Can I just draw it for you with my finger?" Those are all responses I've gotten. And what the ampersand is used for, is to concatenate the contents of several cells; can you imagine what they do to "concatenate?"

[whine]And I go to a lot of trouble to pronounce all the Mexican, Asian, and Middle Eastern names right the first time, too - I've had students be downright startled that I can pronounce Rogelio and don't insist on trying to call someone Roger instead. (This semester I've got Marcelo and Mariano and Julio and Graciela and Claudia - which is NOT pronounced the same in Spanish as it is in English. Not to mention Chi, Emi, and Mohammed. If I can work at it, why can't they? Grumble. Grumble.)(This is the first semester in 3 years that I have no students named Matt or Brian - that's a change! One semester I had 2 Matts and 2 Brians in ONE class.)

Oh boy, I've gotten into a whiny mode here, haven't I? I'd better go get some more caffeine and perk up. [/whine]

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BunRab
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Christopher
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/22 12:28 AM
     

I have to admit, BunRab, that I find it a bit ironic to hear you complain about students mispronouncing "ampersand." Because the very word "ampersand" is a student mispronunciation that became an actual word. Once upon a time, the "&" symbol was taught along with the alphabet, as sort of the 27th letter: ...W, X, Y, Z and &. At the time, the "&" was only called "and," so saying that sequence aloud didn't quite work: "doubleyou, ecks, wye, zee and and." So to specify that the second "and" was "the symbol named 'and,'" they taught it as "W, X, Y, Z and, per se, 'and.'" It wasn't long before the kids elided "and, per se, 'and'" into "ampersand."

(Never mind that the "&" itself is a written elision, the cursive "Et" graphically slurred into a single symbol. This is why in some old books you see "etc." used interchangeably with "&c.")


Trigati
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/22 04:24 AM
     

quote:
"doubleyou, ecks, wye, zee and and."


It's pronounced Zed .


<flies back to lurker-mode>




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tennyson
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/22 04:29 AM
     

Yeah by you wierd nonNorth Americans(joke)

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Trigati
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/22 04:32 AM
     

WAIT!!
When did Canada stop being part of North America ?????




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G-man
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/23 06:56 PM
     

It could simply be that the Nietzscheans are getting their names from a written source, and have NEVER heard them being pronounced correctly. So, while they're spelling it correctly, they are mis-pronouncing it because they don't know any better.

It's in line with condottiere. I pronounce this con-DOT-ti-air'-ee, but am told it is pronounced con-do-TAIR-ee. Mind you, I CAN spell it, but apparently, I mispronounce it.

/s/

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BunRab
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/26 07:25 PM
     

Well, I was wrong. They pronounced Telemachus correctly. Maybe there is hope for the universe after all.

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BunRab
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Starlock
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/27 11:36 AM
     

Personally - as someone who is fond of constructed languages - I have speculated that the Nietzscheans would have developed their own unique dialects or even an entire spoken and written language just to be annoying...

...or to use as a Über-Shibboleth.

Where is Marc Okrand when you need him?

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Rhea
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/28 11:06 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by BunRab:
"Can I just draw it for you with my finger?"

Er...oh, all right - I won't go there.

I too was pleasantly surprised that they got Telemachus right.

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Faryyn
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/11/29 03:16 AM
     

quote:
Originally posted by Christopher:
What gets me is when people say "So-sal Security" instead of "Social Security." I think some people, including our wise beloved tongue-tied commander-in-chief, just say "Sosecurity."

And then there's when people say "nuptual" instead of "nuptial." Where'd that U come from? I guess they're thinking of "mutual," "virtual," etc.


What I really hate is when people pronounce "massage" "massag" (you know hard G.) There is an E at the end of massage. Soft G people. Soft G. I also hate it when people say "mischevious." There's no I in there. Grr..

Just wondering is "clique" pronounced "cleek," like geek or "click," like lick? I have gone into many arguments about that.

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Denmark Vesey
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/12/01 04:49 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by Trigati:
WAIT!!
When did Canada stop being part of North America ?????


When we decided to make it part of Michigan.


Tarandus
 

 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/12/03 07:38 PM
     

They're not right on pronouncing Tyr either. I can't even think of an english sound similar to the scandinavian Y. I guess the best explanation is starting with the first sound in 'one', than bring your lower jaw and lip slightly forward and press your tounge upwards. I'd love to hear how this would actually come out, but I shouldn't be one to complain. I can't speak english without an accent.

BTW I don't think the god Tyr actually gave up his hand on purpose for the betterment of all. It was bitten off by the wolf Fenrisulven (try pronounce that one...) while Tyr tried to put a leash on him. I'm pretty sure it was not the way he planned things and that he would have preferred to keep his hand.




luvreading
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/12/03 09:37 PM
     

Tarandus,

How many versions are their of that story, I only read one.

It stated that the God were worried about Feris and goated him into being tied in chains. He broke free. So they tried it with magic ribbon and Feris got nervous, thinking it was a trick. He would do it if someone put their hand in his mouth.

None of the God wanted to do that but Tyr stepped forward and did it. They knew who ever did it would loose the hand if the cords worked. When Feris couldn't get free and the Gods wouldn't let him go he bite off the hand.

That a rough telling. Tyr did the noble sacrifice thing.
pl

[This message has been edited by luvreading (edited December 03, 2001).]


Tarandus
 

 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/12/03 10:23 PM
     

Well, I admit that the version you have read is a very un-Nietzschean thing to do. I guess there are many versions on the same theme as in any legend. Just as the name we have on the wolf seems to differ.

The version I had read was that the gods put the chain on Fenrisulven by sneaking up on him during his afternoon nap. After breaking the chain the wolf was very suspicious and since Tyr had been the one feeding him and playing with him since he was a pup the wolf had most trust in him and so he volontered. The magic ribbon was invisible even to the gods but Tyr had put it around his arm and in order to get it on he took the wolf by the jaws and shook it which was a game they had played when the wolf was a pup. When Tyr thought the noose was around the neck of the wolf he stepped away, but not being able to se the ribbon he stepped on it, the wolf felt the pressure frome the ribbon and closed his jaws with Tyr's hand still in them. So loosing his hand was more of an accident which had never happened had he not been unlucky enough to step on the ribbon.




cosmicbimbo
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/12/03 10:49 PM
     

i was also surprised that they pronounced tetmachus correctly. did you guys know that the library is actually pronounced LIE-bary. i have a lot patrons call it that.

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[This message has been edited by cosmicbimbo (edited December 03, 2001).]

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luvreading
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/12/03 11:46 PM
     

Tarandus,

Your version fits Tyr(our Tyr) so much better then mine does.

Thank you.
pl


Skywarp
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/12/04 12:51 AM
     

I just kinda figured that Tyr chose the name he did because Nordic Tyr was one of the most feared of the Aesir (the Norse pantheon of gods). If memory serves, he dies pretty spectacularly at Ragnarok as well, just before Surtur destroys the world.

Dan

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Tarandus
 

 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/12/04 01:20 AM
     

I feel I have to go home and brush up my Nordic mythology. I don't remember a thing about how Tyr dies at Ragnarok. I actually don't remember much at all about him apart from the story where he gets the hand bitten off, but I guess he was considered a major deiety since he got a day named after him (Tuesday). However was I to pick a god to name my Nietzschean child after I would probably have chosen Thor who was the strongest of the gods and the god of thunder, and war if I remember correctly.

This is way off topic, I know, sorry, but it just crossed my mind that sacrificing your hand might not be such a bad thing after all for a Nietzschean. I mean if the alternative meant having your wives and children being eaten by an enormous wolf. And having one arm would probably mean that you couldn't go to war against other clans but have to stay home and make babies instead... Or if you could prove you were an excellent fighter with one hand, potential wives could just imagine what would be possible with two hands and be attracted... Or at least you would have proven to be brave and determined by not chickening out when the wolf ate your hand. But it would probably be a bad idea for a mercenary...




Christopher
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/12/04 01:31 AM
     

quote:
Originally posted by Skywarp:
I just kinda figured that Tyr chose the name he did because Nordic Tyr was one of the most feared of the Aesir (the Norse pantheon of gods).

Umm... I know Nietzscheans develop quickly... but I doubt that Tyr chose his own name, since he was only an infant at the time. (At least, I haven't heard anything about Nietz's choosing new names for themselves.)

Tarandus wrote:
I guess he was considered a major deiety since he got a day named after him (Tuesday).

I thought Tuesday was named after Tiw. Is this another same god/different spelling thing?


Rhea
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/12/04 04:03 PM
     

quote:
Originally posted by Christopher:

I thought Tuesday was named after Tiw. Is this another same god/different spelling thing?

Yes. Tiw is Old English and Tyr is Old Norse.

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Rhea
 

 
 
Re: Pronunciation of names
      2001/12/04 04:26 PM
     

Ok, here's Tyr in all his glory:

[major digression]

One-handed god of war. Tyr was possibly the son of Odin and Frigg or the giantess Fjörgyn (Fjorgyn), and younger of brother of Thor. Otherwise he was known as the son of the giant Hymir, particularly in the poem called Hymiskvida in the Edda.

Tyr was one of the earliest gods to be worshiped by the Teutonic people. Tyr was the most important god to the Germans at the height of Roman power, as the chief sky-god, the god of war and justice. In Scandinavia, however, Odin supplanted Tyr as supreme god. Odin inherited many of Tyr's duties as the war-god, reducing Tyr to secondary role.

Tyr was also patron god of justice and the formality of war, particularly of fair treaties. Tyr had the reputation of keeping his oath, a guarantee of good faith. He was often seen carrying either a sword or spear of justice.

Unlike the Greek god Ares, Tyr was the bravest of all the gods (LOL - and we *know* about Aries, don't we? ). He was the god of courage and boldness. Tyr sacrificed his hand in an early encounter with Fenrir, an offspring of Loki and the giantess Angerboda. In order to bind Fenrir, the gods pretend to play a game with the monster and Tyr placed his hand in the mouth of the giant wolf as a pledge of good faith (hey, the wolf believed him, but in this one case it was NOT ). However, when Fenrir found that he was been tricked and it was no game at all, he bit off Tyr's hand.

In the Lokasenna, Loki not only accused Tyr of dishonesty in dealing, since he lost his right hand to Fenrir, but he also told Tyr that his wife had an affair with him (Loki). This unnamed wife gave birth to Loki's son.

Tyr died from wounds during his fight against Garm, a giant hell-hound that he killed at Ragnarök (Ragnarok). Garm
was the giant hound that guarded the gate in Hel, world of the dead.

[/digression]

Ok - that's everything I ever learned about Tyr.

[This message has been edited by Rhea (edited December 04, 2001).]

--------------------
Reverant
Honorary Tyrant
Honorary Trancer
Honorary Harpy
Honorary Roman
Honorary Bekaneer
Honorary Than Hegemonist
Member of ZackAsh faction, Rhea - Keeper of Ashley's Emergency Auxiliary Riverside Shakespeare